Marketing Careers & Breaking into Full-time Jobs with Mosheh Poltorak – JobStep Webinar Recap

JobStep CEO sat down with Mosheh Poltorak to chat about marketing careers, how to break into marketing roles, how startups hire for marketing folks, and what influences their decisions on who to hire. 

Key Highlights and Takeaways

  • The bar to get into marketing has risen. A good way to build experience even before your first full-time role is through internships, volunteering, and accreditations.
  • Agencies are more likely to hire early career individuals.
  • Smaller companies are going to give you more opportunities to try out multiple hats. 
  • Like many other areas, most marketing jobs have moved to remote positions. This allows for more flexibility and reduced risk potential.
  • Three main categories of marketing jobs: Creatives, Analysts, and Technical
  • A well-written resume with little experience is better than a poorly-written resume with years of experience.
  • Proving that you can solve problems with outside of the box thinking can help you land a job in marketing.
  • Make sure to keep up with marketing trends. It’s good to go into an interview being well informed of the industry and news.
  • Pursuing free online programs like Hubspot’s and Google Analytics accreditations are good ways to show you have the basic technical chops for marketing careers. 
  • In interviews and your resume, Make sure you show passion, problem-solving, and a deep curiosity and commitment to staying up to date on marketing trends. 

Full Transcript: 

Eleanor Meegoda:

So everyone, I’m really excited to welcome you to our job step webinar today. Our guest is just one of my favorite people to talk about with this about business and marketing and jobs. Mosheh is just one of the most methodical and thoughtful and and just really, you know, in business, I think there’s, there’s just a lot of you just to get a sense of who’s good people. Mosheh is one of these really good people. And so I’m really excited to get his insights and share them with you all about kinds of trends in marketing, particularly for folks who will have been in freelance or just starting out and want to break in. What are these roles and, and what and how people can navigate the job market. My name is Eleanor Meegoda. I’m the CEO and co founder of JobStep. We aim to be the fastest way to get people better jobs, and our mission is to break down barriers into tech. And so these webinars with great advisors and consultants and experts like Mosheh is one of the ways in which we achieve that mission. So without further ado, I would love to kick it off and let Mosheh give a few words to introduce himself, and then we can jump into the discussion.

Mosheh Poltorak:
Hi, everybody, I’m really happy to be here. I don’t know if I can live up to your Eleanor’s introduction of me, but I’ll try to provide whatever insights and knowledge that I can share. I have a marketing background, been doing it for 10 plus years across companies big and small, and I have recently gone out on my own as a fractional CMO. Happy to dive into what that means, and I think it’s relevant to this topic around this new landscape of work and what it means to be full time and fractional, freelance etc. So this is a topic that I’m really passionate about. In general, I’m really excited about JobStep. I think it’s a fantastic company and service and I’m really happy to be here today.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Thanks, Mosheh. So excited. Okay, so let’s, let’s actually start there. So you mentioned there’s been a lot of changes. I know that, for example, COVID really wreaks havoc on the marketing industry across all sectors. Kind of as, as you’re a fractional CMO for multiple companies, kind of what are some, some major trends that jobseekers should be aware of, of when it comes to kind of marketing roles and breaking in and that kind of thing?

Mosheh Poltorak:
Yeah, so the really the ones that come to mind the most, first of all, of course, the remote work shift, you know, that’s not going back, yes, a lot of people are going back into the office, but the idea of remote work, although it was a trend that had been developing, it has accelerated by a number of years and will not snap back to where it was. So that means for job seekers, on the one hand, it is a positive because you are you can be applying to jobs anywhere, you know, you can be living in Tulsa, and, you know, you want to work for a major media company in New York, or a fashion brand in LA and you’re not limited to that necessarily. On the flip side, it could be challenging because now you’re competing against a global pool of talent, whereas, you know, maybe you were before a big fish in a small pond, and now maybe you’re you become a small fish in a big pond. So it does offer a large opportunity, as well as potential challenge for job seekers. That’s a big one as it relates to just kind of the job search. Now with regards to the roles that companies are looking for. Certainly, you know, whoever was in digital before has had to go digital. So, you know, digital skills, digital marketing, all of that has come to the forefront, not that it wasn’t important before, but all the more so some roles, as you’d imagine, you know, events, coordinators, that type of role have kind of dried up a little bit, although, from everything that I’m seeing, people are eager to go back to events. So I’m hoping that in person events come back. But those roles have certainly, you know, had struggled over the last year in trying to pivot to virtual events. And then finally, there’s just as general I think it’s kind of like this global shift to flexibility, being flexible in understanding that things can change quickly and that that mindset of allowing room for flexibility and that’s partly why there’s a shift towards you know, flex work whether that’s freelance part time. It just allowing yourself as a company to have that flexibility and and, you know, Risk potential and, you know, give yourself more options when it comes to men necessarily committing to full time roles.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Gotcha. Yeah. So that’s a, that’s a really interesting place to go to kind of explore. So you talk about kind of being flexible, reducing the risk potential. So I think there’s a couple things I’d love to dig into, you know, when, when for someone who is trying to break into marketing, you mentioned that everything is digital, how, you know, when you’re thinking about the entry level roles, what what are entry level roles in marketing?

Mosheh Poltorak:
Good question, a lot of a lot of entry level roles will come in inside, and it’s kind of ambiguous, you know, marketing coordinator marketing associate, it basically means doing everything that nobody else wants to do. Which I think is true for most junior roles, unfortunately. But a lot of people break in through an internship, of course, that’s, that’s a tried and true path. When you’re starting out your career, it’s great for students to explore companies, but also more importantly, explore roles. So when you, you know, you’re studying and you can you think marketing is appealing to you marketing has dozens of roles within it, right. So which part of marketing are there specific areas, channels, departments, within marketing that, that speak to you, and an internship gives you that opportunity to kind of explore a little bit more, so certainly a way to break in and find a little bit of a foothold. Now, when it comes to actually applying to jobs, you know, you’ll typically break marketing into three categories. Some would say, to left brain right brain, but I think that’s, that’s General, you know, a little bit too general. So you have the creatives, so you know, designers, writers, photographers, videographers all all have the kind of creative side of the house. And then you have the analysts, people who are very data driven, and will spend most of the day in spreadsheets. And then you have the technical folks, which are, oftentimes, they’re interacting with the, with the engineering team, you know, sometimes, you know, they’re almost like product managers living in marketing, a lot of SEO kind of fits into this bill, where, you know, we consider them more of like, kind of the left brain marketer, but actually, they’re very technical. They’re almost like developers. So those are kind of the three buckets that I would put people in. So within each one, there are entry level ways to get in. You know, on the creative side, oftentimes, you know, social media roles, they’ll bring in junior people. Partly because they think that, you know, if you’re a Gen Z, or then you know, social media, you know, even though having your own social media account doesn’t necessarily mean social media marketing, but it does kind of if you’re a digital native, and you certainly have a leg up. So social media is a way to break in. You know, writing is always a way to break in, I know, we’re gonna get into that, because the topic is kind of shifting from freelance to full time. So we’ll talk about that in a second. On the other side of the house, you do have, you know, kind of digital marketing, Junior analyst or associate roles, which you, you know, you don’t really need a ton of they’re entry level roles, but they will expect certain skills and we can we can dive into those if you’d like.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Yeah. I’d love to dive into both of those. So let’s do that. Let’s talk about the creative. So I think a lot you get a lot of folks who I remember last year when we were just getting jobs step started up when we talked to a lot of recent grads and so many of them had either majored in marketing or communications or English, or maybe even politics, right, so a non technical degree liberal arts degree or some sort of business adjacent degree, and they thought I want to be in marketing. And COVID really wreaks havoc on all entry level jobs across the board, especially in marketing. So you mentioned social media, I’m writing Do you think these jobs will come back for entry level candidates? Or do you think this is something where you you kind of go freelance and you build up credit, and then you move up? What is what is the pathway there?

Mosheh Poltorak:
There’s a lot more opportunity for people who want to go freelance, that there’s marketplaces beyond Upwork. Now, like he used to be, you know, you go to Upwork you go to Fiverr. It’s the Wild West there’s 10s of 1000s of people bidding on projects and you get theirs. Quality, there’s not the highest quality and you get what you get. Now you have a shift from that. And this isn’t necessarily answering your questions about the entry level roles, but you have marketplaces like top towel, and market or hire. These organizations are really interesting to companies who want not junior level talent, but vetted talent, that they can ramp up and ramp down quickly. And that’s what these services provide. It’s kind of like, you know, talent for hire. And then from the from the talents perspective, it is a way to be freelance, but also have some sort of consistency where you’re not looking for clients all the time. I think that there’s always a push and pull between in house versus outsource. And, you know, have this conversation with clients all the time, you know, what’s the right move? Do you build the team in house? Do you outsource? And the answer is? Well, the answer to most things is it depends. But the answer in this case is, is usually it’s combination of the two and it changes with the maturity and the needs of your organization. Keep in mind that I mostly work with startups and tech companies, and companies that are growing quickly. So my perspective may be a little bit skewed. Well, I’m sure it is to you based on my experience, but you know, the the operation at a large agency, for example, or at you know, at you know, PNG or or Coca Cola can be very different. Since I brought that up, actually, agencies are good places to break in as well. Because part of their model is to bring in junior people, train them up quickly, and kind of just, you know, somewhat somewhat of a chop shop, I don’t want to be too negative about the agency life and there’s pros and cons to it, you do learn quickly. But they often will recruit people out of school for those roles. Gotcha.

Eleanor Meegoda:

That’s really helpful. So then, you know, in the startup world, when you’re thinking about advising a team that’s starting to think about their marketing, how what what are the frameworks that, that hiring managers, and, you know, advisors, like yourself that are advising these hiring managers on whether to go freelance versus in house?

Mosheh Poltorak:
Yeah. So the first in house marketer that you should hire is typically going to be a generalist, that is someone who can experiment quickly across multiple channels. Because you’re going to need a little bit of a lot of things, you’re going to need sales enablement material, if you’re doing b2b, you’re going to need, you know, a website and branding and a social media presence, content strategy, some experimentation across digital channels, so you’ll be watching Facebook and LinkedIn, and AdWords. So there’s gonna be a lot going on. And ultimately, someone in house someone’s scrappy, and resourceful will most likely be the best bet to kind of kick off a lot of these initiatives across multiple areas. And this person can, should be able to manage and recruit outsource resources as needed. So if you’re kicking off a content strategy needs some writers, there are marketplaces for that and this person should be able to source that, you know, if if you’re launching an influencer campaign or things like that, like that, this kind of role can certainly run point on that. So it’s, it’s kind of a generalist role. And certainly, you know, when you when people ask me, and you know, I do some just pro bono, I do some career coaching, just, you know, somebody asked me for advice, I’m happy, always happy to help people were in their career and looking to kind of break into marketing or change roles. And, you know, they asked me, you know, how do you get into that role, this is often that way to break in, because you can, you can touch many areas. So, for example, this woman, she has a background in marketing, but she wants to get in product management, oftentimes, as an early stage startup, the marketing role in the product role or, or in one. So if you take that role, you have your product experience, now you can, you know, two, three years or however long you’ve built up that experience now you can go in and market yourself as a product manager. Whereas it’s really hard to get a product manager job with no experience. So yeah, so so early stage is really a jack of all trades kind of role. Someone scrappy, they, they often use the term growth hacker which is kind of trite, but that’s that’s the title. When you’re starting to scale up, the benefits of hiring an agency or an outsource firm is that they specialize so If you’re going to be starting to spend money in AdWords at any specific scale, you want someone who that’s what they do they do Google ads and they know every update that comes out and they know every beta that’s, that’s coming up and they live and breed that channel. So, you know, if you’re doing outbound sales, right, do you need to build up a full in house sales function with sales ops and SDR is probably not you can, you know, have one account executive who is the closer and then use an outside agency to do outbound lead gen and use an SDR firm that can that can qualify leads for you. And we and, and you look for specialists in these various areas. So yeah, so it’s really, it’s depending on where you are in your growth cycle, ultimately, you end up coming back full circle, where you have too many agencies and nobody’s managing them. And oftentimes, that’s where I would come in as a fractional cmo, which is kind of connecting the dots and starting to build out that framework of an in house team that works with outside partners as well.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Gotcha. So even at a larger company, I’ve heard, there will almost always be certain roles that are agency based or freelance based, and then some roles that kind of go in house and beyond the growth hacker, you know, you get a larger company like doordash, or data dog, or slack or any kind of just pre IPO companies like toast or whatever they start to, they have marketing teams, they also have kind of outsource, as you’re kind of scaling up, the startups that you work with, they go from series A onwards, what what are the kind of the next types of roles that you end up hiring, or they end up hiring for you end up advising that they hire in? internally?

Mosheh Poltorak:
Yeah. So you’ll end up transitioning to kind of channel specialist specialists. So as you start to spend enough in a specific channel, where it becomes core to your, to your channel mix, and to your growth, you’re gonna want to have in house people who specialize in that, and you can afford to do that, you know, once you’re, you know, paying an agency 60 to $80,000 a year to manage your channel, you may as well bring that in, in house. In there are benefits to having people in house versus an agency, and we can talk about that. So you’re going to have I think one of the first roles is going to be kind of like an analyst, someone who’s measuring of the channel performance. So even if you have multiple agencies that in house analysts can kind of keep everybody honest in a way. That’s a really critical role. Social media, it’s funny, because I believe that social media should, should be in house, because a brand is your identity as a company, and you know, outsiders couldn’t do it the same, you know, couldn’t do it authentically as you would. However, the trend is that more and more companies outsource social media. So it’s interesting, and I’m curious how they make that work. It takes a lot of collaboration with an outside firm to make sure that the messaging is right. But, you know, content strategy is, is a key piece of any marketing strategy. And oftentimes, that should be coming from the team internally. And then yeah, once you’re once you’re spending, you know, half a million a million a month, in your ad budgets, you’re going to want to be looking at Channel specialists that can, you know, kind of own that function and really just grow it with that alignment that you don’t get an outside team.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Gotcha. So really, it’s you build the in house for the things that are kind of core to the brand identity or for management, or for just kind of reducing the the communication cycles.

Mosheh Poltorak:
Right? The the key challenges with an agency are the the misalignment of messaging, right, because they don’t live your brand, they don’t know all the ins and outs. And also, your point of contact is usually not the person who’s doing the work. So you have an account manager, but then there’s an SEO specialist or writer in Bulgaria, wherever that’s, that’s doing an actual work. And that’s how they they’re able to create economies of scale, but also leads to challenges and broken telephone. So that’s one challenge. The other challenge is not necessarily. I don’t want to besmirch the industry that I’m a part of, but sometimes there’s misaligned incentives right, where agencies are built along certain parameters that may or may not be in the best interest of the business. So you There are pros and cons to hiring an agency for sure.

Eleanor Meegoda:
So I guess, bringing this back on one of the reasons for for kind of our audience members that I like to ask about the business perspective, right is that hiring is fundamentally a business decision, right? We make, we make choices about who we employ businesses make choices about who we employ, who we choose to spend time hiring to fit business goals, I think this is a conversation that often gets lost in the in the job world. And so I like to start these conversations that I have with hiring managers and with advisors like Mosheh on Well, you know, why are they hiring them in the first place? What are the problems that they’re going to solving? And kind of at what stage of company? Do we bring them in? So now that we’ve had more contacts, right, so we’re reducing communication cycles, we’re reducing the misalignment of messaging, we’re keeping people accountable, we’re kind of managing a lot more spend all at once. Those are kind of the goals that easy as a company moves up and you start to hire in house for the roles that you mentioned. So you the growth hacker, for that first content strategist who’s in house for, for that first analyst that’s in house, what do they need to have on their resume? What do they need to be to prove so that they can they can get those those marketing roles?

Mosheh Poltorak:
It’s, it’s a, it’s a tricky question that I hear all the time. And for those in the audience who don’t know, like, I was running this group on clubhouse called the jobs club. And we were just talking to people looking for jobs and people hiring. And that’s something that gets bubbled up all the time that, you know, the entry level roles have requirements, like how do you get into that entry level role? So there are a couple of there are a couple of tried and true methods of doing this. First of all internships we talked about Second of all, the volunteer path, right? So charities will often give you opportunities because they don’t have the budgets to hire people. So they’ll be like, sure, build me a website, why not? Right? And then you have a website that you can show in your portfolio, or an ad campaign or whatever it might be. And then there are pet projects, again, to build your portfolio. And then you have accreditation accreditations. Right. So if you’re coming in as a junior digital marketing analyst, if you did the Google Analytics workshop, and you have certification, if you did the Google AdWords certification, if you did HubSpot, certification, whatever it is, it shows me that a, you’re committed to this, that you’re actually going out and training yourself, right? Because a Bachelor’s in marketing is theory, right? They don’t teach you in most courses, they don’t teach you, you know, Google Analytics now teach you, you know how to set up a drip campaign in HubSpot. So showing that you’ve that you’ve taken that commitment. And you’ve completed it. So it shows commitment, but also shows that you have an understanding of the basics. And then, so it’s, it’s a combination of tools, and also industry knowledge. So show that you are up to date, right. So if you’re in an interview, one of my favorite questions and your views, tell me about some of the blogs and podcasts that you that you follow, right? If you’re if you’re if you want a career in digital marketing, you better be reading and learning all the time, because it changes really quickly. Just this this week, Google announced an update to their algorithm, and everybody’s kind of scrambling about, you know, how’s that gonna hurt my SEO, or benefit nicely, right. So you’re gonna have to be learning all the time, if you’re truly passionate about a career in digital marketing, you’re probably, you know, reading some blogs and listening to podcasts and, and those kinds of things that show that hey, show, again, show commitment, but also give you those skills that you need. And the, you know, I would say for any technical role, you have, like the fundamentals of, you know, you got to know Excel or Google Sheets, you know, those kind of tools. But in a lot of ways, it’s gotten easier, for example, you know, you Canva is a tool that, like makes it super easy for anybody to really create digital assets. So you don’t have to be like a professional graphic design designer to really create compelling ad campaigns or social media graphics. And there’s a lot of those kinds of tools. You know, what, there’s no code on the technical side, where you can, you know, spin things up or or prototyping tools like figma and envision like, so you have a lot of those kinds of tools that will help you. And I kind of went a little bit off course here on your question, I think, but since I’m on the topic of tools, I think that Zapier and those kind of automation tools are really key when you’re thinking of like growth hacking roles where you can really do a lot with limited risk. versus so definitely recommend learning a tool like that.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Definitely so just to recap Canva, Zapier, Google Sheets, Excel. And then just having, you know, a real curiosity about this field, and what’s changing is are kind of two really important, important are two sets of skills, or bodies or skills to check to show that you’re a good fit for entry level marketing roles. So it does seem like marketing has for all that there’s so many people graduating with a marketing degree or I can’t think in the, in the everyday conversations, people tend to say like, oh, marketing as an easy entry level job, you don’t need to be expert, but actually, I think in this on this conversation, that’s that’s definitely wrong. There seems to be a higher barrier here than many of the other roles that we support, like operations, or customer support, or kuzminskas. Where yes, those also have key requisite skills, but you don’t necessarily need industry expertise. In order to get into those it sounds like in marketing, there is a little bit of chicken in the egg of how you get the industry expertise, how do you get the knowledge so that you can convince someone that you can continue to do it? How did how did you break into marketing?

Mosheh Poltorak:
I broke in. So to start with taking on projects. So as a freelancer, you know, I would basically, you know, anything that someone asked me, can you do this, I would say yes, and then Google how to do this. And, you know, through that figured out lots of different components of marketing and what I liked what I didn’t like, and quickly realized that I didn’t like financial services, so kind of moved away from that, and then joined a early stage startup. And that really gave me that opportunity that I was talking about earlier, where I was doing everything in marketing and product. And being able to do that kind of gave me you know, 10 years of experience in two years, because, you know, everything from branding, to customer acquisition, to lifecycle marketing to product development, and, and product management, was able to do all of that. And, you know, and then I’ve also so, so that’s a really good kind of way to build that, you know, why tool belt, and then I spent four years at a e commerce company that I was responsible for all digital marketing team across multiple channels. So that can kind of give me a very deep knowledge in space in a few specific areas. So you need a little bit of both, I think. It’s not necessarily, you know, you can be 100% specialist. But if you’re looking to kind of move up in marketing roles, typically you’re going to need, you know, certain specialties, but also a broad knowledge. There are roles in marketing, I don’t want to say that there that there’s no way to get into marketing without specific skill sets, or experience, there are roles, I’ve seen it, you know, I mentioned this company that I was working at, they had a large call center, and I’ve seen a number of people who moved from the call center into marketing. So they started in kind of a support role. And were able to kind of move into whether it was merchandising, which was under marketing, or into the creative team. As you know, they started as I think an assistant production manager for, for the product photographer, and, and the, and then they moved into the creative team through that role. So there are ways to kind of break in with just kind of like, you know, the basic skills, you know, if you’re organized and thoughtful and and resourceful, you can do pretty much any job right? The other things, of course, are needed to get better at it. But I, you know, if I’m looking at a recent grad, I’m not expecting them to have years of experience I’m not going to write but I want to see those kind of basic, soft skills, less more so than the hard skills. And if you’re eager to learn, you’re going to learn, right?

Eleanor Meegoda:
Yeah. So I’m going that’s a really nice transition to just kind of talking about the hiring process. So you’re looking to mention, you’re looking for people who are organized, thoughtful and resourceful on top of, you know, any of the skills we mentioned, but you know, sometimes you’re you’re willing to forego the skills if you see the really good personalities in marketing. You know, I do see marketing roles open. When we tested with marketing roles. At the height of the pandemic, we were able to get some of our folks interviews. But it was a far lower rate than for many of the other roles that we now support like us. recess and operations and data analysts and so forth. Do and part of that is I know that there are some roles where, because of the nature of the role, or the way high Rangers are just kind of the culture of the industry, some people really prefer networking, or they really prefer having worked with someone or they prefer kind of someone doing a contract job for them, and then hiring them in house as a test before bringing them in house versus and customers as their customer support, the onboarding timeline might be a little bit shorter. And so you can sort of see test something out, or, you know, bring someone in house. And also, there is a bunch of kind of in house cultural knowledge that you want to pass on. So for marketing, where does where does this fit? is this? Like, you know, do you see people getting hired through resumes? Or is it largely through networks? Is it you know, finding people who are freelancers having them do work for three months, and then maybe then hire them full time? What it what’s, what are the patterns here?

Mosheh Poltorak:
So hiring through network is is. Fortunately, unfortunately, it’s it’s it is what it is right? I think it was, like 60, or 70% of jobs never get posted. I forgot what the statistic was, most jobs Get, get hired through people’s network. So 1,000%, that you should be networking, and you should be building your personal brand. Because even if you send in your resume, I’ll tell you from from my experience, having looked at many resumes, I’ll spend a few seconds on resume 20 seconds or whatever it is right? scanning, it does look relevant, right? If it does, then, you know, I’ll spend a little bit more time on the resume, I’ll look at it, I’ll look at a cover letter if there is one. And then the next thing is Google them, right? Just see them on LinkedIn, see them, you know, and see what they what they’ve done to their portfolio or whatever. Right? So having that digital presence is critical. posting to LinkedIn. You writing if that’s if that’s your thing, if you’re a writer, published on medium, have a blog, publish on LinkedIn doesn’t have to be long form just be out there. And you will see you will reap the benefits gone clubhouse there’s tons of great conversations that happen every day and connections that are made all the time through that. So absolutely. You should be networking. And then, sorry, I forgot the other part of the question.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Yeah, just how hard how hiring works.

Mosheh Poltorak:
So you’re asking about the kind of trial try before you buy, that does happen, that’s not necessarily useful for entry level roles, because you can’t really give them anything. But for any sort of like skill based roles, whether it’s a designer, writer, even digital marketer, you could and often do see people giving, you know, a project, and then based on the success of that project, being, you know, offering someone more consistent part time work, or potentially bringing them on full time. Gotcha.

Eleanor Meegoda:
So there seems to be a split. So the designer writers, technical folks, you bring on part time on kind of freelance projects, and then maybe bring them on full time sounds like the analysts, that seems like a full time position or from the get go, or is that one that you also see freelance first and then bring them in? Yeah.

Mosheh Poltorak:
An analyst most likely will get like a project, whether it’s, you know, some sort of that data analysis, optimization, whatever it is, project, and then and then be offered more of a full time role. I am not a huge fan of as a hiring manager, you shouldn’t be giving people work during the hiring process. So if you’re gonna do a try, before you buy, make it very clear, pay them for that work, right? So you’re paying them as a freelancer. And then if you want to work with them, you work with them, right? Don’t give people work as an interview process. That’s just not fair. So, so yeah, so so different companies will have different policies on different hiring managers have different views on that. Also, keep in mind that in a lot of roles, it’s very competitive. It’s a, it’s a candidate market. So you don’t necessarily have the opportunity to be as an employer to be super picky, or super demanding about you know, what, we’re going to try you out and offer your project and then maybe in a month or two, we’ll think about it because that person might have three other offers. So for the people that have the skills, and have the experience, there’s a lot of great roles out there. The challenges that that you know, kind of breaking in and building up that early stage, which is you know, why jobs tech needs to exist and organizations like that. To help people break their breaking?

Eleanor Meegoda:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. So one thing I want to I want to double click on that you said earlier, when you look at the resume, you look to see if it’s relevant. And every hiring manager I talked to there’s, that’s slightly different preferences and what relevant means what when you’re kind of doing that 20 seconds, I know some of these things are not even kind of in our conscious brain. They’re in our kind of subconscious as we quickly skim. What, what determines if someone is relevant or not? Is it a skills? Is it context as an industry? Do you look for that thoughtfulness somehow?

Mosheh Poltorak:
Yeah. Well, relevant is maybe not the best word when you’re talking about entry level positions. Because you know, you’re had this, there’s still some relevance, I will say, and, you know, call me out for this, if you will. But I’m very picky when it comes to resumes for marketers, like I’ve hired many engineers, and I’m okay with the resume says, I want to see what their GitHub looks like, right? But when you’re hiring a marketer, right, you have to be able to market yourself, right? If you can’t market yourself, then why would I expect you to market for me? So, you know, we talked about thoughtfulness, your resume is your, that’s your first impression, right? You got to make sure that you you at least have the basics, right. There’s so many resources out there about online, you know how to write a decent resume. So even if you don’t have the experience, you can put together a professional looking resume, that doesn’t have mistakes that presents you in a in a positive life. Now, talk about relevance, you know, talk about courses that you’re passionate about, right? That talk about a project that you did, there are ways to bring in past experiences, even if they’re not job experiences that show relevance and passion. Yeah, and kind of, not on your question, but somewhat related. cover letters, for the most part, I believe, disagree with me, if you will only help if you’re looking to do if you if you don’t have any experience that’s directly relevant, right. So for most people, cover letter doesn’t matter that can really only hurt you and not help you, and a lot of ways but if you’re looking to switch careers, or you’re looking to break into a career, that’s where you have that opportunity to really stand out and tell me the story behind the you know, you right as person, because your resume is not going to have the story that someone with the traditional, you know, I was digital marketing associate, and that kind of digital marketing manager, right. So I can see that story. If you don’t have that story. Tell it to me in a cover letter potentially.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Yep, yep. And that, that, that tracks with the other types of roles that we support, we used to send cover letters with almost every job application. And then we found that it only made a difference if the employer required a cover letter, in which case, we didn’t put one in. The the other exception was if the job seeker had particular passion for that industry, and then we sent one, but otherwise, we never sent a cover letter because we knew most of time they weren’t reading and the likelihood of not that we have mistakes on our cover letters, because that’s just not that would that’s not what we ensure everything looks great. But it was not just there’s there, it adds more data than that, then the recruiter needed to evaluate someone. Okay, so that’s, that’s really good. And then of course, designers need a portfolio but for content writer for an analyst for these kind of technical SEO, folks, or even a growth hacker, do they need a portfolio? Or is the resume sufficient?

Mosheh Poltorak:
So it’s gonna be hard to have a portfolio in those cases. So writers, yes, designers, yes. developers use you probably built a couple websites, you know, even for a friend for yourself, whatever. Web developers when you’re talking about stos and paid search, those kind of channels you probably had less experience, less experience to show for. You know, like I mentioned before, if you can if you can find if you can, you know find a friend who has a who has a little boutique and say Hey, will you give me 20 $500 a month to manager your paid search spend. And then you have something that you can show, you know, a capstone project in your senior year that you got to work with a real company and you can talk about some tangible results. At minimum, just show that you know the tools show the you know the you understand the channel And the the goals of that channel. You know, certifications are free, at least the Google ones. I think HubSpot is also. So those ones are a little harder to have a portfolio when you’re just starting out. When you’re, when you’re in your career, I’ll tell you again, as someone who’s looked at many of these resumes, if you don’t have numbers and results are on your resume as a digital marketer, so if you’re a performance marketer, your resume has to be, I would say half numbers, but it’s got to have a lot of numbers in there. Like when I talk about scanning for relevance, if you’re applying for a digital marketing manager role, and you’ve been in digital marketing for 25 years, and there’s no like, you know, percentage increase or X amount of, of increased conversion or whatever metrics you were looking to optimize. Like, that’s not a performance marketer right? Now, that’s not true for for someone who’s just new to the role, you’re not going to have that, of course, it’s it isn’t necessarily true for creatives, although I’ve seen some of the best creatives are very, you know, they, they may not be in the data every day, but they care a lot about like the effects of their, their designs and writing and look to see what the results are. And we’ll publish those, which is always nice to see, but especially for performance marketers, you got to have those numbers.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Gotcha. Cool. So we’re almost at time to turn over to audience questions. But I want to check to see because Mosheh and I came up with a bunch of really interesting questions that I want to make sure we talk to. So I guess, one. So we talked about the kinds of things to put on the resume, you talked about making sure you have metrics. We’ve talked a lot about kind of implicitly about kind of college grads, but what if you, you know, you mentioned merchandising, a lot of job steppers come out of retail, and then decide they want to move into some something related to what they’ve done. And marketing and merchandising and retail space, or in hospitality or in restaurants? Can there’s some similarities, and there are some things that are different. Is is the leap to high here, or have you seen people successfully make this leap? And even if you haven’t, you know, is it enough to just show that you are very quantitative? What are the types of what are I guess? Let’s going back to the person who has the personality, and, you know, is reading all these blogs, but maybe doesn’t have a ton of projects? What what are the types of So you mentioned kind of freelance projects, are there other types of projects from their full time work that they can mention, that kind of demonstrates some of the thinking or creativity or approaches that you’re looking for in your marketing hires

Mosheh Poltorak:
1,000% if you came to a problem, and looked at it differently and came to a solution, I don’t care what that problem was, it could be you know, your stores, window display, it could have been your, your restaurants, shift scheduling, if you can show creative problem solving, or you can do that in any context, right. So speaking to specific accomplishments, in whatever industry and whatever type of role, I think it shows, again, you’re looking at, I generally hire for the way someone thinks and the way someone will approach problems. So if you’ve done it in, in retail, you there’s opportunities to, you know, to show passion for customer service to show a unique problems solving, skill set to show, you know, effective communication skills, right. So there, these are skills that are necessary in marketing just as much in real in retail, you know, the hospitality industry, like I know that you can handle yourself under under pressure. So that’s a good thing. Talk to that. Definitely, you know, play up your strengths and use them, right. You’re not, don’t wipe away that party resume be like, okay, it’s irrelevant. I’m starting from scratch. No, it’s not irrelevant. But it’s up to you to tell that story because not every hiring manager is super creative. And you can’t blame them if they’re going through 100 resumes to sit there and think about connecting the dots for you.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Gotcha. Okay, that is that is really helpful. So in addition to hard skills, like HubSpot certification, and Google Sheets, and Google ads, and also being aware of trends in marketing, and maybe one or two freelance projects, even if you have a few years under your belt, you’re not just out of college, you’ve been doing other things. Showing your creativity, how you problem solve, speaking to what’s made you successful in those roles, whether that’s working under pressure, or thinking outside the box, finding ways to showcase that in your previous experiences is pretty key. And so you’ve answered a lot of questions about how if we support marketing roles, you know, which Types of marketing candidates we could support and what kind of feedback we give them to let them know, hey, yes, you’re ready where we can get you five interviews and maybe maybe not so thinking Mosheh. So I want to switch gears. I know that there are some folks who have some questions. So one question is, I’m a director of marketing with an emphasis on branding, executive coaching and campaign strategy. What are a few courses, or things I can do right to help my transition into a more corporate side? So I know you’re mostly on startups? So not sure. If you want to take a stab at this one Marshall question.

Mosheh Poltorak:
I can’t talk too much about it. Because I don’t have a ton of experience in that area. Corporate jobs are much more rigid about requirements. And in general, roles are much more narrowly defined. So what and this is true for I think, all job postings, where you just look at what they write and see, you know, how many of those things can you map your skill set to or your experience to? So finding a role that that, that leverages those skills that you have, and telling a story around? Like why you can map to that role? even, even if you haven’t had that specific role? In the past? Yeah, and of course, at the senior level, Scott, the, you know, a lot of these roles are done through recruiters. So networking with recruiters, and building your personal brand, right, we talked about LinkedIn, putting out content, networking, on LinkedIn, on clubhouse, Reddit, wherever you are, building up that community?

Eleanor Meegoda:
Absolutely, yeah, I think we’ve found for even non marketing roles in corporate, if you have exactly the skills that someone is looking for. And so we’ve actually had success with a couple corporate roles, but they line for line had a much higher percentage of the requirements that we normally need our job seekers to match for kind of non corporate roles. And that that’s when we actually see the response rates from corporate companies, and we see it in a reasonable time period. Another thing I will say is that corporate companies often take whereas most other companies will take four days to two weeks to respond, we find that corporate companies often take four or 562 months to respond to job seekers. So just something to think about

Mosheh Poltorak:
one quick thought on that, which may not be relevant. I don’t know who needs to hear this, but, you know, with with the importance of diversity and inclusion, and you know, that’s brought to the forefront. Thankfully, it’s still there’s a lot of work to be done. I saw this interesting thing where it was that men would apply for a job if they had 30% of the bullets match. And women would only do it if they had like 80 something percent. So I’m just going to encourage anybody who’s not sure of Should I apply or not apply? Just have that confidence and do it because, you know, don’t fall into that trap or assuming that Oh, everybody else was applying has 100% of those.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the more research I’ve done working with job seekers, it’s, it’s both a gender thing, but I also see it when it comes to race when it comes to which industry you’ve come from, what are you because we’re not, there’s a lot of people who kind of go into this thinking they don’t have it and don’t realize just kind of how often they have problem solved and thought out of the box in their lifetime. Yeah. Great. Any other questions from the audience?

Scott Engler:
I’ve been an entrepreneur for a while now. So corporate is my way of explaining anything that’s not entrepreneurial. So right now, I am consulting for a startup, they’re in year four. And I imagine to Maria’s point that based on my personality, which is a little bit more unconventional, and the way I do marketing, I would connect with a small to medium sized company more. Because you’re absolutely right, it is even more rigid and becomes a little bit more challenging for me to try to connect the dots of all the million things I did in my own marketing business, and just don’t have the language yet to translate it over, if that makes sense. Like, I’m still trying to figure out what multi channel marketing really means, you know, I’m 98% sure that I did that in my business. I just don’t know, because I didn’t call it that I was doing a bunch of different things on different channels. So with that being said, mostly I know, I know, the challenge I’m facing right now is I love small and medium sized companies. Most of them don’t have the budget to hire me on. So what would be your suggestion there?

Mosheh Poltorak:
Become a fractional CMO. That’s that’s kind of, that’s what led me to my path which is I I’m working at the early stage companies. And I wanted the opportunity to be able to work with multiple at once. And by splitting up my time, that way, it’s able is able to work for both sides that I get to do what I love to do. And companies are able to afford me because it’s, it’s only on a fractional basis. That’s one opportunity. Also, you got some trade offs, whenever you’re making a decision, certainly, when it comes to career, if you’re going to be, you know, choosing, you’re going to be the the compensation, location, the role, the type of company, all these factors that you’re deciding between figuring out what’s most important to you, if if you’re willing to sacrifice some compensation for working with startups or, you know, sacrifice startup for better compensation or, or unique benefits. So that’s where, you know, you focus your job search. So it’s really it’s a personal decision, and there’s no real right answer to it. The other thing is that startups, there’s the upside of, you know, usually there’s an equity component to those roles. So again, that has to do with your financial situation has to do with your appetite for risk, and then just, you know,

Eleanor Meegoda:
yeah, thank you. That’s very helpful. Yeah. Awesome, that that’s, I mean, the time conversation has been really helpful. Mosheh, any last thoughts before we close out?

Mosheh Poltorak:
I’m gonna piggyback what I just said about having self confidence. And if, you know, certainly, if you come from an underrepresented group, you know, try to overcome that. And I know it’s an uphill battle, but everybody sometimes feels like an imposter. And like, I don’t have what it takes. And you know, I don’t match all of the bullets on the job description, you won’t know until you try. So just try to put yourself out there do do what you need to do. You know, set aside time for job searching, set aside time for building your brand. And, you know, putting out content or putting yourself out there on social media set aside time for networking. And you’ll get there, everybody, everybody’s got to start somewhere, and you’ll get your break.

Eleanor Meegoda:
Well, thank you so much, Mosheh, I know that there are marketers out there who are going to be inspired by your words. And thank you for being both speaking to the business side and the tactical levels. It’s a it’s a really helpful and a kind of a unique perspective that I think a lot of job seekers don’t get. So thank you. Just to close out, I want to share kind of our contact information if you want to continue the conversation. So if you want to follow job step for more events or learn more about what we’re doing, we also put out quite a few resources as we build them for our job seekers. We like to share this as democratically as we can. So follow us on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram at job step Co. You can also follow us on Eventbrite for future events. We have one next week about transitioning from hospitality to tech, with Adam parsh. He worked in hospitality for many years, moved into sales and now is in customer success. And, you know, if you’re finding that you’re struggling on figuring how to translate your experiences from one job or one industry to another, or you know that you are really struggling in your interviews to really capture those those soft skills or kind of hard to communicate pieces, or you’re feeling a lot of imposter syndrome. That’s, that’s jobs, that’s bad bread and butter. Right? on, you know, we can talk about how we find and apply and automate the job search. But what we’re, what we really are good at is giving you time and space to think about what it is that you bring to the table what you know, your problem solving skills, the grit, the things that often get overlooked as you’re trying to write your resume. We do that with our wonderful coaches I know joy is on is on this call. So I’ve got coaches like joy and and then we use data to make sure that those resumes are optimized to those roles. So you have that translation from one industry to another that you’re using the right keywords that to explain what you’ve done. And then we save you time by finding and applying to jobs, which gives you more time to practice for interviews, for networking for building up your skills. We’re taking that course on HubSpot, that you meant to take so that you are more prepared for the interview. And so ultimately, you have a faster job search. So thank you so much, Mosheh, thank you so much, Adrian, our intern for manning the chat and recording this conversation. And thank you to our audience today for joining us and spending your time. I know there’s a lot of places you can be. And so I really appreciate everyone’s time and insights and questions today. Thank you so much.